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Zimmerman 2012!
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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thank you, jesse
Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:14 pm
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RealJustice



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Brother Ali weighs in:

http://blogs.citypages.com/gimmenoise/2012/04/brother_ali_trayvon_martin_million_hoodies_march.php

"...as a young black kid living in America, your only real cultural currency is the fact that you're cool, you're scary, or you're sexy. Those are the things that we actually place value in. That's why it's such a beautiful thing for black kids to see themselves in the president. We downplay that symbol, because we don't understand what it means to see on TV and on the radio. Everywhere you're presented "look how cool Jay-Z is, look how sexy Beyonce's ass is, look how scary Omar from The Wire is." This is a cultural currency that we leave kids. And when they spend that currency, we say that Trayvon was a thug, so he deserved to die. That's basically what we're saying. To even bring that into the conversation, that's the underlying suggestion. Unless he was Steve Urkel, he deserved to die."
Post Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:34 pm
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Limbs



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
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^Yup
Post Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:12 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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Thank you brother Ali. I fell like I'm not alone now.

from the above article:

"The conversation that's coming out of this is showing that we've become very polite, and we've become deafeningly silent about institutional racism in our society. For a long time, we've given ourselves credit for work that we haven't completed. We've begrudgingly, at a snail's pace, doled out these concessions to our black citizens, but we've never really fixed the institutional problem.

There's this really damaging, hurtful idea that stifles progress, that we're post-racial. A lot of people think that racism isn't a factor in people's lives anymore, and that Obama is the final symbol that we're past racism. The reality is that whether or not we're bigots individually, hate black people, or say the n-word, we're taught to look at it on a really individual basis. We can say, "I as an individual, I'm not racist." But the reality is that racism has become an institution of its own, and it's also a part of every single institution in American life."
Post Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:58 pm
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anomaly
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Joined: 22 May 2008
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NBC: George Zimmerman to be charged in Trayvon Martin case

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/11/11144255-nbc-george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-case?lite

Edit:
Officially being charged with 2nd degree murder.
Post Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:05 pm
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desert penguin



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
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Not looking forward to hearing about this case everyday for the next two years. I mean, I hope for justice for the family, and I hope that people learn something about the world as a result of these discussions, but fuck am I done talking about this bullshit with ignorant people.

Another "Trial of the Century." Yay.
Post Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:09 pm
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anomaly
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somewhere out there, Casey Anthony is eating this shit up
Post Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:15 pm
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Captiv8



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anomaly wrote:
somewhere out there, Casey Anthony is eating this shit up


I agree. However, this case actually has cultural and legislative value. Hopefully sometuing good can come out from the entire thing (if there is a prolonged trial) other than a condemning verdict for Zimmerman.
Post Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:29 pm
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Confidential



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Aside from just a conviction, this could help redefine the discussion of racism in america. america desperately needs to learn how to talk about racism. some of the mainstream media attention has helped, but overall, our national discourse on racism consists of either refusal to acknowledge it, or refusal to take it seriously, or considering the average opinion on reverse racism and the colorblind society as equally valid as a whole body of academic literature on the problem which, usually, is ignored altogether.
Post Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:24 pm
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Mark in Minnesota



Joined: 02 Jan 2004
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There are two separate race questions here:
- Is Trayvon Martin dead because of George Zimmerman's alleged racism?
- Regardless of whether race was a factor in Trayvon Martin's homicide: Did racism in Florida's criminal justice system result in a delay in the second-degree murder charge that George Zimmerman ultimately received?

To me, the answers to the above questions are "Yes, race was probably a factor in the circumstances of Martin's homicide. No, the delay in prosecution was probably not a function of either Martin's race or Zimmerman's race--Florida statute mandates the exact form of restraint the Sanford PD initially showed." There's room for debate on either point but for me these questions don't seem to cut to the root of the issue.

There are two important gun control questions here:
- Will Florida's "stand your ground" law result in a miscarriage of justice in the state's ability to successfully prosecute George Zimmerman for Trayvon Martin's murder?
- Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman is eventually convicted of Martin's murder: Zimmerman shot Martin during an apparent attempt to detain him until the police arrived. Under "stand your ground" doctrine, Zimmerman apparently believed that this shooting was a justifiable homicide. If Zimmerman had believed otherwise, either at the time he first considered detaining Martin, or in the heat of the resulting physical altercation, would Martin still be alive?

To me, if the answer to either of these questions is "yes" then the only reasonable conclusion is that Florida's "stand your ground" law is a bad law and needs to be changed. Conversely, if the answer to both of these questions is "no" then the intense furor which followed the shooting is an overreaction and should require us to re-evaluate our collective response to the tragedy.

I think the gun law question is more important than the race question because I think the race issue is largely intractable in this context. It's real and it's something we need to address as a society, but tragedies like this are too polarizing to result in teachable moments for most people. A teachable moment might have happened if Martin had allowed Zimmerman to detain him, and waited peacefully together with him for the police to arrive, and then calmly demanded that the police take statements so that Martin could use them to sue Zimmerman for wrongful arrest--or perhaps demand that the police charge Zimmerman with false imprisonment.

With Martin's death we lose that moment because we get too caught up in the clear-cut "this shouldn't have happened" character of the outrage to thoughtfully examine the "what should have everyone done instead?" question.
Post Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:09 pm
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JohnSchwan



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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Wait, I was following with you for a while. You mean to tell me you expected that a 17 year old black male, in a state with some racist tendencies to sit and wait with the guy following him with a gun? Then you expect him to know that he can sue the guy, and trust that the police will do the right thing?
Post Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:34 am
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Mark in Minnesota



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No, I don't expect that.

My point is not to assert what Trayvon Martin should have done.

What I offered was an example of something that I think could have resulted in a truly teachable moment about race relations rather than a cut-and-dried melodrama featuring a clear victim, a clear villain, and a legal system which helped the crime to happen. Instead we got the melodrama, and we aren't going to learn anything about race relations from the melodrama. It's too polarizing.

However, it was never Trayvon Martin's job to deliver a teachable moment for the rest of us. At this point it also isn't our job to try to learn something from him about racism after the fact. It's to mourn him, and to ask out loud what needs to happen to prevent something like this from ever happening again.

My answer to that question is that Florida bent their justifiable homicide law beyond recognition or value with "stand your ground" as it is currently written, and that at the end of the Zimmerman trial, the thing Florida legislators owe Trayvon Martin's memory is a change to that law to make this kind of thing less likely in the future. Some kind of national détente on the issue of race isn't even too much to ask, it just doesn't follow from the events themselves.

I think we need to resist the urge to turn Martin's shooting ex post facto into a lynching or some kind of martyrdom situation. A friend asked me a couple of weeks ago how Trayvon Martin is different than Matthew Shepard. My answer was immediate, which is that Martin's death was the result of a heated altercation, over in moments, and likely could have been avoided had cooler heads prevailed on either side of the conflict; Shepard's death was cold-blooded torture and murder, a crime committed in detail over a period of hours. Matthew Shepard was murdered because of who he was and because his attackers didn't see anything wrong with killing him because of it. Trayvon Martin was murdered because George Zimmerman decided to initiate a hostile altercation on a night he was carrying a gun in a state where "stand your ground" law and the pro-gun political climate were both telling him that it was a-okay to shoot if he felt afraid for his life.

The particular circumstances which caused him to initiate an altercation and the basis of George Zimmerman's fear for his life during the altercation are both secondary concerns to the fact that he knew (or thought he knew) that in his state he would be allowed to use a gun to get himself out of trouble that he got himself into. Without conceal-carry and stand-your-ground in play, it's highly likely that he either would not have followed Martin armed or would not have shot him to end the fight.

In the aftermath of Shepard's death our nation unified itself around the idea that being gay should never make someone a target for such abhorrent violence. In the aftermath of Martin's death, the unifying moment isn't ever going to be about race, but it could (and should!) be unified condemnation of the idea that an armed adult should have no duty to retreat from lethal conflict with an unarmed minor. I don't know how to say it more clearly than that.
Post Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:01 pm
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Confidential



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desert penguin wrote:
Not looking forward to hearing about this case everyday for the next two years. I mean, I hope for justice for the family, and I hope that people learn something about the world as a result of these discussions, but fuck am I done talking about this bullshit with ignorant people.

Another "Trial of the Century." Yay.


True. Saw the coverage on the 24 hour news cycle today. Bringing in an ex state attorney to discuss the possibility that Zimmerman will appear in civilian clothes versus a county jail jumpsuit. Fuck. I'm done with this bullshit.
Post Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:22 pm
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Plum Puddin'



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Post Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:46 pm
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anomaly
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surprisingly, i haven't heard shit about this recently
Post Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:01 am
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