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"Why are Indian reservations so poor?"
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bigsole
Bought his character on ebay


Joined: 27 Aug 2002
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i do understand how important it is that people feel "ownership" or better yet "not alienated" from what matters to them. i have seen first hand, situations with "collective" arrangements where it does breed the kind of mediocrity that economists describe when critiquing communism. but one thing i've learned is that to make more then one person feel "ownership" of anything, decisions have to be made through consensus, ie; everyone must agree what to do with the land if everyone is going to feel ownership.

there were no problems with "private property" until the settlers started printing up titles. i recently read "commonwealth" by antoni negri, and many people believe that if we restored the commons we would be more prosperous. european peasants had no problems with private property until god started handing out deeds to kings and noblemen....
Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:31 pm
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Mikal kHill



Joined: 29 Jun 2002
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I like owning land and I hate all my neighbors. I want to have a castle made out of a mountain like Ice King in Adventure Time.
Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:00 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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Mikal kHill wrote:
I like owning land and I hate all my neighbors. I want to have a castle made out of a mountain like Ice King in Adventure Time.


Fun fact: the illustrator for Adventure Time is the same guy who did the cover for Sick of Waging War

edit: my mistake, not cover but other artwork


Last edited by jakethesnake on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:18 pm
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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Really? Which part? I know I did the front cover and back cover originally. And then Irena Girlbot did the back cover and maybe the inside cover as well. Were there illustrations of his included there? It's been a while. But I know for sure no one illustrated the cover of Sick of Waging War. I simply cut up two pictures and drew some words out with white out.
Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:52 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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Sage Francis wrote:
Really? Which part? I know I did the front cover and back cover originally. And then Irena Girlbot did the back cover and maybe the inside cover as well. Were there illustrations of his included there? It's been a while. But I know for sure no one illustrated the cover of Sick of Waging War. I simply cut up two pictures and drew some words out with white out.


Hmm. Maybe I'm thinking of another one of the sick of series. I remember you asking how to contact him in a post at some point in the past. It was a few years ago.
Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:00 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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found it (please don't ban me for this :P)

http://www.strangefamousrecords.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=566211&sid=65991c46458b1b3844d10203e9afcf50

Funnily enough I think the artwork was drawings of Native Americans....

GHOSTSHRIMP = The illustrator for adventure time.

And thus the forum has come full circle...
Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:35 pm
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Sage Francis
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Right, OK...he's the guy we used some images from on the inside cover. He didn't illustrate the cover of Sick of Waging War, but you're the second person to state that recently. Unless it was also you who said this on Facebook. It all makes sense now though.
Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:43 pm
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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A friend of mine informed me about this group, Idle No More, in Canada that is working really hard to reclaim the national space as indigenous territory that should be respected. This is there website: http://idlenomore.ca/

What I think is most interesting about this is that there is only one rough equivalent to this group in the US, the American Indian Movement. The big difference I can see right away between them is that INM seems to working from a more sensible base, while AIM has and continues to espouse something more radical. This point may be petty, but I also think that a group's webpage reflects a lot about the professionalism of the group, and there are clear distinctions between INM and AIM in that category as well.

Edit: I also meant to ask, what's your interest in all of this, Sage? Are you just gathering information or is there a cause/concern/personal interest involved?
Post Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:53 am
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Sage Francis
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It's just a general curiosity of mine.
Post Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:10 pm
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bigsole
Bought his character on ebay


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idlenomore is all over north america, although most of the coolest shit is happening in canada(other then the keystone XL pipeline blockade which was done in solidarity with idlenomore). went to a very large demonstration the other day here in denver... many AIM folks are working under the IDLENOMORE banner, but idlenomore is infusing a new youthful energy into the indigenous resistance in north america.

http://www.mediacoop.ca/story/map-january-11th-idle-no-more-events/15540
Post Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:01 am
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Dr Sagacious



Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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bigsole wrote:
european peasants had no problems with private property until god started handing out deeds to kings and noblemen....


First, "private" property did not exist in Feudalism. Peasants paid rents (in the late stages of Feudalism) or gave a considerable portion of the produce they harvested to Lords. Since the Neolithic revolution, there has always been a class that appropriates the surplus according to how any given ruler(s) felt it should be appropriated. That statement you made is not very historically accurate at all.

I can get down with idlenomore though. Also, free Leonard Peltier!
Post Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:28 pm
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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Location: Aus.
Re: "Why are Indian reservations so poor?"  Reply with quote  

Firsly i dont really have any clue whatsoever about these reservations.

A couple reasons may be that: these communities have no or very little relation to large business. They do not establish big companies (or very little) and do not work for them. Any considerable wealth is generated by a business which provides a service to lots of people. Natural resources are mostly tapped, so this is out of the question.

One factor i think that caused wealth to become concentrated in Western society is inheritance. I doubt people of these communities have inherited anything much. They're probably just doing the work to survive thing and had a "late start" in the big game of money; where oppurtunities are dwindling as time progresses and if anyone can make a good deal of cash, it is regulated by those who are already established.
Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:34 am
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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Re: "Why are Indian reservations so poor?"  Reply with quote  

DeadAwake wrote:
Firsly i dont really have any clue whatsoever about these reservations.

A couple reasons may be that: these communities have no or very little relation to large business. They do not establish big companies (or very little) and do not work for them. Any considerable wealth is generated by a business which provides a service to lots of people. Natural resources are mostly tapped, so this is out of the question.

One factor i think that caused wealth to become concentrated in Western society is inheritance. I doubt people of these communities have inherited anything much. They're probably just doing the work to survive thing and had a "late start" in the big game of money; where oppurtunities are dwindling as time progresses and if anyone can make a good deal of cash, it is regulated by those who are already established.


Are you drawing parallels with Australia's aboriginal peoples here, or is this just pure conjecture? One of the key differences between Australia and the US in their treatment of indigenous populations has more to do with geography than anything else. Where the land of the US is mostly desirable, aboriginals have been able to form ethnic enclaves distinctly of their own design, apart from settler Australian society, because of the Outback. However, one of the key similarities is the forcible removal of children for "educational" purposes by either country. I think the cultural context, which is to say the historical trauma, of the Stolen Generations is very similar to what happened in the US during the same time period. Margaret Jacobs wrote a brilliant book on the subject, White Mother to a Dark Race.

At any rate, if we ignore all other factors but economics, the subject seems very cut and dried indeed. It's not that reservations don't have business; the casino has been the flagship business of most modern reservations since the 1980s. It's that business is 1) not diversified, 2) not managed well in some instances, through cases of corruption, a lack of consensus, and sometimes a plain lack of business savvy, and 3) not based around capital. What's weird is that casinos are immensely profitable, so it's not a matter of making money. It's investing it and distributing it in a way that is maximally beneficial to the community. And casinos typically have preferential hiring policies for Native Americans, to the point where you have cases of de facto reverse racism. Now couple this casino income, which is tribal and should go directly to the reservations, with per capita payments from the federal government (this is a form of reparation that a significant percentage of federally recognized tribes get. In some cases, the state also pays out a set amount) and you have a really bizarre problem. The money is there, but it isn't always distributed fairly, or spent properly or in a healthy fashion.

Clearly then, the issue is not just one of economics. In fact, economics have very little to do with why reservations are poor, although the are a sort of ancillary factor. The biggest issue is historical, which is to say that the historical treatment of Native American people has created an environment that isn't conducive to autonomy, self-representation, control over natural resources, and so forth. Take, for example, hunting and fishing regulations, which are regulated by the state and not the reservation, even when the waters or land is on the reservation itself. The money for licenses goes to the state, not the reservations, an issue further complicated by the language of treaties, which often granted usage of land, not ownership. Many of these treaties are not honored today, or have been so twisted from their original meanings that they are worthless. The effect on the ecology of Native people has been well documented, beginning with Alfred Crosby's Ecological Imperialism and William Cronon's Changes in the Land. You can also observe this issue at work in a contemporary setting by looking at the oil sands of Alberta, Canada. The oil-removal process has devastated the local landscape across wide swaths of terrain, most of it owned by First Nations groups.

In my mind, the biggest problem is historical trauma. This isn't my specialty, as it is outside my field, but I have read a little bit about the subject and I'm convinced that it is the reason that rates of obesity, drug abuse, alcoholism, depression, suicide, and rape are highest on reservations. The transgenerational effect of observing a 92-98% population loss in your demographic, the wars with settlers, the constant dispossession of land, the destruction of indigenous lifeways, the forced assimilation, the lack of autonomy, and on and on. These are all traumatic events that continue to disturb the Native American psyche. It's not as simple as "Get over it, that was hundred of years ago." Discrimination is still felt blatantly today, and is racism and stereotyping, all borne of ignorance. Look at sports teams. No other racial demographic is depicted in sports as a mascot, as if they were not real people but just symbols. Washington Redskins. Cleveland Indians. Atlanta Braves. Kansas City Chiefs. Chicago Blackhawks. And even more when you move to college and high school. I went to an elementary school where the mascot was the Red Raider, and it was a generic Indian dude coming at you with a tomahawk. No wonder most people think Native Americans are mythic.
Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:49 am
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bigsole
Bought his character on ebay


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sagalicious, nice straw man argument! i never said shit about feudalism.

my point: private property dispossesses people from what thy require to live. whether we are talking about peasants living off the land and sharing "the commons" without a sense of who owns what, or we are talking about pre-settler north america, the point remains.
Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:54 pm
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Captiv8



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Dr Sagacious wrote:
First, "private" property did not exist in Feudalism. Peasants paid rents (in the late stages of Feudalism) or gave a considerable portion of the produce they harvested to Lords. Since the Neolithic revolution, there has always been a class that appropriates the surplus according to how any given ruler(s) felt it should be appropriated. That statement you made is not very historically accurate at all.


Aside from the fact that this has little to nothing to do with the topic, this is also false. Privately owned land has existed for some time, since at least the Roman Empire. Ergo, it also existed in the feudal era, as tenants were bound to their lord and his land, which may or may not have been leased by the monarchy of that particular region. The ability to work the land, for the serf, was his fief, and in exchange he owed a percentage of that to the lord, who, again if subject to the reigning monarch, paid a percentage of his fiefdom.

Land tenantry does not mean that there was no private property. It means that private property was in the hands of the landed elite. This, truth by told, is not too different from the system today. Most people, for instance, do not own their land in fee simple absolute, which is the highest possessory right. Ownership is typically in fee, which is the right to use the land, i.e. to live in a house on any given estate. Most property, unless fully paid for and the title to ownership in fee simple absolute is explicitly given, is rented through the mortgage loan process. A private individual, a company, or a bank thus grants the right of fee to the land, often through a realtor.

Anyway, that's way off-track. That said, this actually has more to do with Native Americans than it may initially seem. Treaties, in explicit language and from the indigenous perspective, often granted usage of the land (fee), not complete and total ownership of the land (fee simple absolute). Through the magic of US interpretation, the ownership has been divested from Native Americans and divided up among competitive non-indigenous landowners. The Homestead Act of 1860 is an example of this at work. The General Allotment Act of 1887, which divided landplots among Native people in the Plains, may have seemed benevolent, but it was actually designed to create a legal process by which land title could be transferred, ceded, or sold from Native people to white settlers.
Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:33 pm
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