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The case for Ron Paul possibly winning the nomination!!
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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The penalty is $219 for THIS YEAR because the law was only active for a few months.

Next year, it will be significantly more and will most likely result in him owing money.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:14 pm
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MessiahCarey



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And if you think that libertarianism is, primarily, a way of saying "I don't need your help so don't look to me for help" then I don't know that we're ever going to have a breakthrough.

Because if you saw the amount of money I've paid out of my pocket to help pretty much every single person who's ever asked me for help from family to friends and strangers, you'd realize why I'm living paycheck to paycheck when I make 50k a frigging year.

And please, don't mention to me what libertarians do and don't believe. You're clearly not equipped to do so since you are not one.

I could say that liberals believe in laws that protect us like not talking on the cell phone while you drive.

Then you could watch self-described liberals talk on the phone and drive all day if you stand and watch people cruise by at Downtown Crossing.

Here I am talking like I actually identify as a libertarian. Hahaha. That's what YOU'RE calling me. Burn this whole fucker down, baby, never mind the bollocks


Last edited by MessiahCarey on Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:18 pm
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Scottie



Joined: 18 Jul 2003
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The problem with this situation is there is no option to opt-out completely from the healthcare system. The healthcare system is under moral obligations to treat the injured and sick regardless of coverage.

Shane in your example while it would be great for your friends to be able to roll the I am healthy now dice and sidestep the system but in the case of a major injury or diesease rising up suddenly they are going to need the system to take care of them. From my limited understanding that is what the MA program is trying to address. Offering coverage to everyone that falls below a certain poverty line and requiring those that are deemed as able to afford coverage to buy into the system thus reducing the burden on the public in worst case scenerios.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:21 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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is the penalty a flat fee or is it adjusted depending on your total income?
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:22 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Scottie wrote:
requiring those that are deemed as able to afford coverage to buy into the system thus reducing the burden on the public in worst case scenerios.


Oh, I get the idea.

But this is where the problem lies. The people who are deciding who is "able to afford" coverage ARE FUCKING RICH AND ALREADY HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

If that was their intent, then they just fucking suck at math.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:24 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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futuristxen wrote:
is the penalty a flat fee or is it adjusted depending on your total income?


I don't know the answer to that for sure.

I'm lucky enough that my company pays for 75% of my health care so I only have to pay $100/month or so.

And since each month I'm $200-400 short on my bills - I could really use that money back. But fuggit...who needs food when you have HEALTH CARE!?!?!?!

We were joking the other day about Eric going in to the Dr. and asking for a sandwich. Heh.


Last edited by MessiahCarey on Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:25 pm
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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MessiahCarey wrote:
The penalty is $219 for THIS YEAR because the law was only active for a few months.

Next year, it will be significantly more and will most likely result in him owing money.


Again, it's hard to find details but nothing I've read indicates that that is true. $219 isn't a by-month amount, my understanding is that it is the flat individual exemption amount, but I really don't know. If this is true that certainly does change the math.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:26 pm
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3flip



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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if you are a libertarian all it means is that you believe in liberty...
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:27 pm
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Scottie



Joined: 18 Jul 2003
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MessiahCarey wrote:
Scottie wrote:
requiring those that are deemed as able to afford coverage to buy into the system thus reducing the burden on the public in worst case scenerios.


Oh, I get the idea.

But this is where the problem lies. The people who are deciding who is "able to afford" coverage ARE FUCKING RICH AND ALREADY HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

If that was their intent, then they just fucking suck at math.


This I understand completely and I am in no way familiar enough with the law to comment that deeply on it.

So would you not object to the plan if the upper class was not so skewed on what real life poverty actual is and the income lines were more realistic?
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:27 pm
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Embryo



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MessiahCarey wrote:
And if you think that libertarianism is, primarily, a way of saying "I don't need your help so don't look to me for help" then I don't know that we're ever going to have a breakthrough.


I wasn't trying to indicate that was the whole of libertarian thought. But I do suspect that there is an emotional, selfish streak that underpins the entire movement. I know that sounds dickish and maybe it is but I'm trying to be transparent about my thought process out of respect. Maybe it's not selfish, and it's just a matter of forgetting that someday fate may not smile upon you, and you might need help from someone else. But what I hear from libertarians, on many issues they are passionate about, is, "I don't need your social protections so dont' make me pay into them or sacrifice my guns for them." And that strikes me as an unrealistic island mentality.

On the other hand, they are a huge ally on the issue of civil liberties, which I think is a common thread between libertarians and the entire left. I would prefer to focus on this common ground than on the differences, and I think that if it weren't for Ron Paul, libertarians would be looking at Democratic candidates rather than him.


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Because if you saw the amount of money I've paid out of my pocket to help pretty much every single person who's ever asked me for help from family to friends and strangers, you'd realize why I'm living paycheck to paycheck when I make 50k a frigging year.


I love you, Shane. You're a generous and giving person. I don't want this discussion of political principles to make it seem like I have any doubt about that. Perhaps its' just that some libertarian-curious people are naturally generous and resent the government structuring their social giving. I support that wholeheartedly and respect it enormously. But I hope you can understand why that might not do it for people in the roughest of spots, to hope that they have a Shane in their lives to help them through tough times.


Quote:

And please, don't mention to me what libertarians do and don't believe. You're clearly not equipped to do so since you are not one.


I'm not trying to speak for libertarians, but I am a political scientist, and I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. I'm making an analysis... it's subjective. I hope it's clear that I'm trying to own that.


Quote:

I could say that liberals believe in laws that protect us like not talking on the cell phone while you drive.


And some do. Some liberals are also bad at drawing that line of personal liberty. I share your concern with this, which is part of why I can wear libertarian shoes for a minute, just to try them on and see how they feel. But I'm not talking about the color of the specific pair I'm wearing but the shape of the insole. It's different than generalizing about one policy consideration. Cell-phone car safety is not a consistently-held view of liberals.


Quote:

Here I am talking like I actually identify as a libertarian. Hahaha. That's what YOU'RE calling me. Burn this whole fucker down, baby, never mind the bollocks


Sorry yo -- I just thought I saw a trend. I apologize for boxing you in.


Last edited by Embryo on Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:33 pm
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Lusid
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
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MessiahCarey wrote:

We were joking the other day about Eric going in to the Dr. and asking for a sandwich. Heh.


My friend was about to become homeless a few days ago but has food stamps to live off of.
We were joking about making a Ramen Noodle hut to live in and burning bundles of them for a fire to cook the noodles over and for warmth.
The hut could also be converted into an igloo when there ws snow.
Sadly he's now homeless and it's not so funny.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:33 pm
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MessiahCarey



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3flip wrote:
if you are a libertarian all it means is that you believe in liberty...


Well...there is a big L and a lower-case l "libertarian". One has a larger subset of beliefs, but what you're saying is largely true when someone is described as "having a libertarian view on things". There are plenty of Republicans and Democrats that have libertarian views on particular issues, but the Libertarians apply that philosophy across the board - which I believe to be a little shortsighted as I get older.

I would not describe myself as a libertarian, but it's far less scary than what my political beliefs actually consist of - which would be community-based non-heirarchal government.

But anyway - we're talking about America and American politics. There are 49 other states that have found other ways to care for their citizens in other ways short of forcing them into paying for services they do not need or want.

I still love it in MA, don't get me wrong...but it's getting harder for the poor as the years go on. With a notoriously Demoncratic state that doesn't give me much of the inherent faith in that party's ability to help the poor. I've watched my mother's social security benefits get SLASHED under Romney and then even more under Governor Patrick - who I tend to really like when he speaks. He's a great politician, and I believe he has a future on the national stage.

Anyway....who cares. Ron Paul sucks, Romney sucks, and I can imagine that it all fucking sucks when your stomach hurts - even if you've got a good scheme on paper backing you up.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:35 pm
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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3flip wrote:
if you are a libertarian all it means is that you believe in liberty...


That's not true, and I hope you realize that. Liberty is foundational to liberalism, anarchy, and many other schools of thought. Don't buy this kind of propaganda from libertarians. There are many other factors in play.

RE: what shane said in response to this, my impression is that libertarianism is a political school of thought and Libertarian is a political party. I don't think the word ever is properly used to describe a concern with liberty, except as it relates to libertarian principles.


Last edited by Embryo on Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:35 pm
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MorallyBass
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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I also disagree with Shane's position that healthcare is some kind of luxury that people should be able to avoid due to their decisions or living situation. Scottie did a great job of showing the larger impact of that action. No matter how healthy you are right now, everyone needs to have health insurance to protect themselves and society as a whole from the impact of their accident or illness.

Also, it costs a hell of a lot more for free care at ERs for issues that could have been avoided with proper preventative medicine.

I may be wrong about the specifics, but I also think Shane's argument that the care isn't affordable is incorrect despite the examples of his friend's he alluded to.

I would also take serious issue with the idea that $50k isn't a hell of a lot of money and that supplying your own healthcare prevents you from eating.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:36 pm
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Embryo



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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MessiahCarey wrote:
There are 49 other states that have found other ways to care for their citizens in other ways short of forcing them into paying for services they do not need or want.


Really? I'm just not sure I agree with you on that. MA is one of the few states to try to stop the bleeding of a health care regime that is sliding into a giant hole from which it's been bailed out already more than once. I think it will become more clear how neccessary these reforms are once other states' health care sitches get even worse than they are now, while MA's gets better.


Quote:

I still love it in MA, don't get me wrong...but it's getting harder for the poor as the years go on. With a notoriously Demoncratic state that doesn't give me much of the inherent faith in that party's ability to help the poor. I've watched my mother's social security benefits get SLASHED under Romney and then even more under Governor Patrick - who I tend to really like when he speaks. He's a great politician, and I believe he has a future on the national stage.


Word... well, it looks like we're going to get that casino, if not more than one. I think Patrick's so invested in opening that particular pandora's box because he needs the income to restore/increase state services like those. I agree, they are hugely important.
Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:39 pm
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