seandaley
passive aggressifist
Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 1537
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i'm not anti-intellectualism.
i'm just not that academic myself.
i'm sure that's obvious.
and i'm sure that i'm not the only one.
but i didn't set out to be "snarky."
i started by honestly saying that i wasn't mad at saul for the nike thing, and joked about how i would love to put one of his paragraphs on a tshirt.
but i apologize to anyone who was annoyed by my contribution to this thread.
didn't realize that it was that big of a deal.
won't happen again. |
Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:05 am |
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shambhala
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6297
Location: the barber of hard truths |
no no you are appreciated. just kinda sometimes seems a little bit like you think we're dorks. we are. but you're here hanging out with us, bart.
i spoke too soon, i hadn't read the whole thread. monday cubicle shittiness. carry on. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:07 am |
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the contortionist
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 706
Location: Brighton, UK |
Am i the only one here who didn't find Slug's posts snarky (except the Elephant thing) but instead found that they came across as honest and sincere? We can debate issues on here can't we? It's presumably not a forum for everybody to just pat each other on the back.
Edit: Hadn't seen the above when i posted this. But still.
Last edited by the contortionist on Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:15 am |
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seandaley
passive aggressifist
Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 1537
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i don't think anyone's a dork.
except for ant.
i didn't come here to argue.
i never attempted to unvalidate anyone's opinion.
so i reacted when a few people attempted to unvalidate mine.
it's ok.
i'm ok, you're ok.
everyone is ok.
we learn as we go. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:16 am |
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shambhala
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6297
Location: the barber of hard truths |
okay. and i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but putting a video of an elephant painting right in the middle of that conversation kinda seemed like, "jesus here these self-righteous crusaders go again with their opinions. here, fools, settle down and watch the funny." which to be fair is the ultimate invalidation of their perspective.
just an observation, man. you might not be academic but you're clearly a sharp fella so it comes off like a statement. there. i will stop interjecting myself into rap star samurai duels. there's lots of groovy to go around for everyone's purposes. the treehouse is peaceful. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:26 am |
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seandaley
passive aggressifist
Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 1537
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in retrospect, i do see how the elephant thing could be misinterpretted.
but i literally was just reacting to how cool i thought the elephant thing was.
i had just received the link in an email from a friend.
there was no overtones or metaphor behind my motive to post it.
just wanted to share something cool in a thread that was getting weird and heated.
next time i will make a new thread for something like that.
nurries.
Last edited by seandaley on Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:58 am |
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous
Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 19715
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Y'all are going to think I'm crazy for this last post of mine, but I needed to take a couple hours out of my day to sum up my thoughts and respond to the comments.
Not a single person in this thread has an invalid opinion. It's not my goal to invalidate any one's opinion here. What we've been discussing is something that hits close to home for a few of us and we want our opinions known. None of these opinions can ever become fact. As I have stated before, my main objective is not to change anything. My aim is to uphold a standard and help people understand what that standard is. If I fail in upholding that standard, then that's when I say, "I'm human. I tried, but I'm human. Tis human to burp."
Or as Walt Whitman once said, "If I contradict myself it is because I contain multitudes."
That's a quote that Saul Williams emailed me yesterday, and I believe it is a quote I used in the linernotes of one of my albums. Yesterday I took a bit of a break from the internets to share some quality time with my partner, but a few emails were exchanged between Saul and myself via nerdphone. I will share his thoughts in a follow-up post, but we both conclude that an open dialogue is important, and nothing but good can come from the discourse.
Maybe the one bad thing that can of it is me being over aggressive and Sean being passive aggressive. But that's not a direct result of this specific argument.
As I pointed out before, the phrase I most relate to in one of Saul's responses is: "As we raise our standards so does the world around us."
This is optimism. I believe in it. This could very well mean I am more optimistic than cynical. If I were a cynic I'd say, "Man, no one gives a shit what your standards are. People will do whatever they want regardless of what you say or do." The optimist believes otherwise. It doesn't matter if you are a plumber or a rock star. You affect the people around you by the choices you make. Any deal made with the devil should be approached with great trepidation and scrutiny.
Although I echo Slug's sentiment about "hearting Saul," that isn't my first reaction to him striking a deal with a billion dollar conglomerate.
seandaley wrote:
can't we all just wear our v masks and hang out with a skinhead natalie portman without trying to bone her?
I feel like you are reducing me and my actions to this fantasy scenario while poking fun at my obsession for natalie portman. Two stones. One bird. haha
seandaley wrote:
slow down hillary.
Nah, but seriously. You are on some "Slow down, Gandhi" shit. You're pretty much exeplifying why I used that phrase as a song title. Not that Hillary is akin to Gandhi, but it's like..."Slow down, Martyr" which is something you have said in not so few words. Implying that I'm blowing things out of proportion to appear as a martyr. Someone who is taking a public stance to uphold a standard and make people accountable for their actions...that's not your bag. I know. It's safer and less troublesome to stay out of the fire but here we both are. Someone who stands for something and makes it public doesn't need to be slapped with the "martyr" label every single time do they? This cross is getting heavy. My back hurts. Would someone please martyr me?
seandaley wrote:
i'm glad i wasn't faced with the choice that saul was faced with.
I believe you are faced with that choice every day, because the opportunity is there for you. You do not jump on those opportunities for reasons you don't fully disclose. You did an Air1 advertisement that ended up losing you money due to a sample infringement. You could have easily made that money back by doing other ads but you have chosen not to so far.
seandaley wrote:
i also believe that we will see more and more of this.
The optimist in me can read that and detect cynicism. It's all about perspective I guess. I believe we will see less of it the more artists are urged not to do such things. I did say artists. Not rappers, not rock stars...artists.
seandaley wrote:
does it make me too much an optimist to think that it takes a while to break it from the inside out?
It makes you less of an optimist to not acknowledge that we are already on the inside, which I believe we are. We're IN it. We have the financing, the following and the influence. We are pushing the numbers, packing in the clubs and effectively presenting our ideas to the public. We don't need to be on the inside of a Nike shoe to know it stinks. I believe we have the access we need without making certain concessions.
Below is a quote taken from B. Dolan's post, one that many people couldn't retort to as his reasoning, though idealistic, seems bulletproof:
b. dolan wrote:
i'm not using slavery as a metaphor where it shouldn't be used here ... when we talk about Nike, we ARE talking about slavery.
the conditions nike workers have been forced to live in in the past, are AS BAD as the conditions some american slaves were subjected to.
so i mean... when is it OK to draw a line and say 'this is wrong.' ? am I on some self-righteous soapbox if I say that slavery's bad? and that people should not be treated like animals?
would i be the opportunistic asshole on a soapbox if i was saying that its wrong to oppress people just because they have different skin color than you?
So...
seandaley wrote:
Sage Francis wrote:
It's gotten to the point where the line between selling out and not selling out is so thin it can be skipped over without notice, concern or revolt. As values continually diminish, no one is allowed to hold any of us up to a moral standard.
i do not agree. this isn't fact, it's opinion. and i don't agree. if that makes me part of the problem, rather than the solution, i will wear a shirt that resembles the target logo for ya when the revolution comes, to make me an easier shot for ya.
Yes, it is my opinion that values continue to diminish and anyone who demands that people be held to a moral standard are usually frowned upon. If you're going to wear a target logo during the revolution, does that essentially make you the martyr?
seandaley wrote:
Sage Francis wrote:
We had a similar conversation on this forum when I openly rejected having my tour be sponsored by Scion. You said something like, "Oh man, if they asked me to do that I would."
not true either. and a little out of context.
i remember the conversation well. and i used "sprite" as my example.
Your memory was a bit better than mine so I had to go and search that old thread:
http://www.strangefamousrecords.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38427
As I read through that thread I was saddened to see that we're treading the same water. However, what seemed like theory at the time is now a reality that we're debating about.
In that older thread I explained how I turned down 150K for a car ad. And I turned down more money from Scion, a company that wanted me to promote their product on my tour.
I summed up my original thoughts with this:
Sage Francis wrote:
Many conversations on this forum have addressed the Nike shit and rapper shit and Sprite/Coca-Cola shit and whatever else and all I can say after dealing with it on a close and personal level is that...my opinion on them, their art, their false persona stands as true as ever.
We all make concessions with each step we take into becoming a commodity more than an average joe posting home recordings on a myspace page, but lines need to be drawn. When major corporations dangle that golden carrot it sure is enticing, but man...have a back bone. If a corporation is willing to pay you stupid amounts of money to promote their product it means you're well to do in the first place.
I may have been wrong with that final thought.
On page 13 of the thread I just linked, Slug explained that he turned down the same offer. "But only because they wanted a song that had a pretty big sample in it."
He turned down scion money because he "didn't like the scion car."
Turned down sprite money "ONLY because i don't agree with kids drinking soda."
And lastly, "i won't do beer sponsorship if i have the say in it.
even though i drink beers. but that's only due to the amount of children that come to the shows."
Those are a lot of "buts."
Yet, in the end:
seandaley wrote:
i do believe in stealing from the devil and using his resources to fight him...but we've argued about this before.
Whether that's true or not, and whether you believe that or not, up to this point it seems the only devils you've stolen from (if you've stolen anything at all) are some of the fans. That's where the money is coming from, not advertising, not endorsement deals, not licensing. So if you believe in stealing from the devil (assuming the fans are not the devils,) that just means you haven't acted on it yet. When you do act on it, I'm interested in seeing how those resources are used.
I have chosen a separate path. I was able to make enough money off of the business of music that endorsement deals with "the devil" are not a necessity in order to sustain my preferred lifestyle. In fact, I went the complete opposite route and decided to fund knowmore.org, a company that provides a free service to the public. We help expose the inhumane practices of some corporations that other artists are being co-opted and branded by. In fact, it is a company that you generously donated money to last year, and although you're not the type to make that information public I am not ashamed to say that we took it and it was very helpful.
seandaley wrote:
so tell me then, why have i kept my music out of most corp hands so far?
I can't tell you. You can tell me. But I will tell you anyway. haha. It's because you're not sure if you can taint your conscience. The angel on your shoulder speaks in caveats.
seandaley wrote:
i don't need to look like a martyr. never been my steez. i'm not interested in that look. besides, if i did, you'd probably accuse me of biting.
ouch ouch. Hey hey. Ouch.
seandaley wrote:
maybe next time you could challenge me without being a cock?
I'll do my best, Hillary.
seandaley wrote:
a few of you are so ready to insult people who don't completely agree with you.
This last quote is just for shits and giggles. All in all, you're not only a passive aggressive weirdo but...you're a good man, Charlie Brown. I know I am an asshole sometimes. I'm having a tough time getting beyond the principles at stake. I don't think this was a waste of anyone's time. Hope not.
Bill O'Reilly just called me and told me to bandage up my antlers while letting you have the last word.
Thanks for the discourse and sorry for the needless jabs. I have an image to uphold.
Fran
Last edited by Sage Francis on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:00 pm |
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icarus502
kung-pwn master
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10666
Location: ann arbor |
And... scene.
Til next year when this all happens again. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:21 pm |
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PHIL LACIO AKA P DAWG
the godfather of troll
Joined: 18 Oct 2002
Posts: 4825
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Saul doing a Nike ad will not be his legacy
he is not mainstream 95% of the people who see the ad will not know it's him, I was happy for Lyrics Born when I heard his song in a Commercial that means he is getting some money that will help him pay his bills thru the year and sustain his music career, same thing with blackalicious they had a soda commercial. I don't see why rappers are held to different standards than rock muscians, classic rock artists sell their music to commercials constantly, John Mellencamp for a car ad? hasn't he done alot of good with Farm Aid? or is he a piece of shit for selling his song
moby licensed Play 100's of times, hell U2 and Bono who has arguably done more for people than anyone ever in the history of music has Ipod commercials,..has everything Bono done deemed irrelevant for him swimming with the sharks? People are leaving money on the table for some self righteous ideas in 10yrs when that money is gone and so is your audience and you can't survive making music you can allways look back an say ya man I kept it true..and the only one who will remeber that you didn't sell your music for a commercial is you when you look at your bank statement. This isn't directed personally at anyone on this board. I just feel fans are so fickle and so unloyal that artists should maximize their earning potential I would rather see artists I enjoy and respect living well than having to struggle. Like I hope Boots from the Coup can live comfortable and not have to have a real job. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:17 pm |
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Pvt_Moose
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 417
Location: L.A. (redondo) |
i dunno it just seems really simple to me...
saul working with nike is a clear contradiction to what hes expressed through his work.
how big of a deal this is, is up for the debate but bold print is he contradicted himself. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:31 pm |
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shambhala
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 6297
Location: the barber of hard truths |
Pvt_Moose wrote:
i dunno it just seems really simple to me...
saul working with nike is a clear contradiction to what hes expressed through his work.
how big of a deal this is, is up for the debate but bold print is he contradicted himself.
bullseye.
which is whatever. but what weirds me out is the self-justificatory part, where he's like, I'm doing this aaaaaand it's also super awesome here's why, and all you who might point out the enormous holes in my logic are just a bunch of "cynics." The salient point he made is that he's using Nike to sell his music. So, that's fine. But that's really what's going on here, Saul. Eat, eat, eat. But don't shit in the kitchen and call it potpurri too. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:49 pm |
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b. dolan
Ace Boon N3wb
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 5334
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b. dolan wrote:
all this moral relativism shit kinda wreaks of 'self esteem generation' thinking. like whatever you want to do is OK because you want to do it.
i support counter-productive or bad shit every day ... i support shitty companies due to my laziness or addiction or whatever... but i take RESPONSIBILITY for the act. that's all I'm advocating here ... that people not try to re-arrange reality so the act is ok. just man up and say:
'when i buy marlboro cigarettes im supporting oppression, but most days i feel powerless to stop' ... 'exxon is a garbage company, but i'm too lazy to go anywhere else cause its on my way to work'.
'saul williams advocates social justice in his work, and sold his music to a company that, for all intents and purposes, owns slaves. bummer.'
i can live with shit like that, because it acknowledges objective facts.
i'm not trying to judge anyone here ... saul william's balance sheet is for him and his accountant to figure out.
what i am saying is that we shouldn't surrender our objective ability to say "that's wack though. guess saul williams did a wack thing."
sorry for the long post
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:16 pm |
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desert penguin
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 892
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shambhala wrote:
Pvt_Moose wrote:
i dunno it just seems really simple to me...
saul working with nike is a clear contradiction to what hes expressed through his work.
how big of a deal this is, is up for the debate but bold print is he contradicted himself.
bullseye.
which is whatever. but what weirds me out is the self-justificatory part, where he's like, I'm doing this aaaaaand it's also super awesome here's why, and all you who might point out the enormous holes in my logic are just a bunch of "cynics." The salient point he made is that he's using Nike to sell his music. So, that's fine. But that's really what's going on here, Saul. Eat, eat, eat. But don't shit in the kitchen and call it potpurri too.
it's the self-righteous thing from everybody else that weirds me out.
saul is a human being, not a hero. he makes mistakes. maybe this is one, and maybe it isn't. NO ONE here is in position to actively judge him as a human being or his actions as a human being. |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:52 pm |
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b. dolan
Ace Boon N3wb
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 5334
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jesus christ.
WHO?!
WHO IS BEING SELF-RIGHTEOUS?! WHO IS JUDGING SAUL WILLIAMS?
hahaaa
who are these "everyone else" characters? name names please.
MAYBE
you are projecting "judgement" onto everyone that wants to identify the act itself as 'bad', due to your own defensive feelings.
"well shit, if saul williams is a sellout, then *I* must be a sell out! stop judging saul williams!" |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:55 pm |
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous
Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 19715
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Email from Saul:
"I'm still on my phone and haven't checked the link u sent but I am
having some questions and thoughts about ur thread as I drive through
the New Mexican countryside. Feel free to post:
1. Is white privilege ever mentioned or the varying modes of dissent in
different communities? Does anyone acknowledge that my largely white
underground fanbase may be upset by the ad but that a grand majority of
the people my music addresses may not have had me under their radar
until now?... Including those who would most readily benefit from
'reparations', who are now swopping airforce ones online, and have given
little thought to corporate integrity suddenly are exposed to these
ideas and more through my work?
Two quotes come to mind here:
"If I contradict myself it is because I contain multitudes"
Walt Whitman
"I contradict myself? I contradict myself!"
Oscar Wilde
2. The next thing that comes to mind is cynicism and those who define
their political consciousness by mere dissent and what they say no to
versus what they are open to and the power of their Yes. I think of this
primarily because when I spoke to a Nike exec last week and asked if
they were aware of the hate they get from the thinking few, which was
really my way of bringing up Nikeresponsibility.com to see how real it
was, I was surprised by the steps they are taking and the people they
are bringing in to help them shift their corporation. This has made me
contemplate how the activist responds when their rally cry is heard. Are
we prepared to show love to those who begin to correct their wrongs or
do we damn them to hell? As an 'AfricanAmerican', I've had to learn to
be very forgiving towards people who in many cases simply knew no better
and didn't realize the weight of their comments or actions on me.
By the way, what struck me the most about visiting the Nike headquarters
was not that they were corporate vampires, but they were all ex-
athletes and coaches who had gotten injured or retired and started
working with Nike. That whole 'did u see the game?' mentality was the
main vibe of the whole place. Very different from a corporate empire as
I might imagine. No suits, just basketball hoops in offices, blaring
sports center moniters, and story swopping about their kids playing for
whatever school and winning or losing. They were a bunch of jocks who
thought my music was great to work out to and then found that it
resonated a little deeper with each listen. I didn't know it was founded
by two track stars (one was Prefontaines coach and is credited with
bringing/popularizing jogging to the states) who were hired by Tiger, a
japanese training shoe company, who eventually left the company to start
their own using their Tiger connections..thus the asian factory
connection. Ofcourse the cultural norm in other lands, in particular in
regards to working age and hours can be pretty fucked outside of our
zone of priviege. And the fact is, smaller US companies benefit from
these practices now more than Nike, but because of their size and
dimension, Nike is one of the few who can actually make demands to the
governments of these countries to change their ways, which is the only
way to truly end child labor or sweatshops when it is a cultural norm.
It was interesting to learn of how most of the higher ups started paying
attention to this only because their kids started asking questions. So
then they started asking questions and are now in the middle of a major
shift, just like the record industry, just like America. Just like me, I
might add. I've gone from saying fuck you to those I disagree with to
actually sitting down with them and realizing that I could influence
their behavior better through dialogue. An example of this is how
Kanye's Diamonds are from Sierre Leone song came about. It was
originally entitled Diamonds are Forever, but when my producing partner,
Tiffany Persons sent a treatment that I wrote of a doc we were then
working on about the relationship between the attrocities surrounding
diamond mines in Africa and Hip Hop and the African American population,
he actually called us saying he had no clue and could we come give him a
crash course. So we did. First he changed the name of the song, then he
had me come sit with him and Hype Williams as they mapped out a video
tracing a diamond from a mine to a showcase. Years earlier, I had had a
pretty big argument with my girlfriend of the time, a friend of Hypes,
who had invited him to dinner with us, where I had refused to say a word
to him cause I couldn't stand his effect on hip hop through his
affiliation with puffy and such...
Anyway, back to my Nike tour, i actually couldn't believe how much money
sports generate, which is great when I remember that just last year I
was thinking of national sports teams being possibly the best
alternative to war. People need something to do with their nationalism.
Anyway, as u can see, I learned and am learning a lot through this
little gesture of saying yes where in the past I would have said no.
Its funny cause my new year resolution back in 2002 was to say yes to
whatever comes, cause I had spent previous years saying No to so much
and I wanted to see if I could trust the possibility of the universe
bringing things my way for my growth and spiritual prosperity rather
than for the sake or test of my rejection. That year, the thing I said
yes to was the TV show Girlfriends, a UPN sitcom produced by Kelsey
Grammar. Not only did I learn not to judge a book by its cover by
meeting and interacting with the super-smart and funny women who created
and star in the show, who raised politicized questions behind the scenes
about their characters and lines in ways I never imagined they would,
but I also met, Persia, whose boyfreind I played on the show, and is now
my wife (its been 30 days!).
This year my new years resolution was to accept greater responsibility.
The definition of responsibility that I like best has primarily to do
with handling greater amounts of energy. To me, this involves not shying
away from anything from responding to emails or song liscensing requests
even though the repercussions may demand more of my attention than I
feel like giving. In the case of this commercial which uses my song, I
really do believe that its my song that's using the commercial. And no I
do not stand behind all the harm that major corporations can and have
done to humanity and that also goes for Apple (which aint green) and
countless others that I believe we will make more responsible for their
actions through dialogue such as this and by the mere evolution of our
awareness. And yes, also by the power of our dissent. Creative dissent
makes the biggest waves it seems. But sometimes saying No or Fuck you is
way to easy when we ostracize a world of change we could create. Blah
Blah. Pull this van over I gotta piss.
Grippo,
Saul" |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:34 pm |
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