Profile
Search
Register
Log in
Gender roles, lust & love.
View previous topic | View next topic >

Post new topic Reply to topic
Strange Famous Forum > The General Forum

Author Message
Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8500
Location: Third Coast
 Reply with quote  

Found it. Here's the ad I mentioned:



I guess you can only be a "force of beauty" with make-up on. Seems like a contradictory message to me, but you be the judge.
Post Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:51 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
zagadka
DARK PAST HAVER


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 4931
Location: Hous of Gaga
 Reply with quote  

I've seen that ad before and thought the same thing... only beautiful when wearing make-up. Huh.

I have a love/ hate relationship with the stuff. Gosh, 10+ years ago I was planning to be a make-up artist because I was/am obsessed with the way it can literally change your features; I can change the color of my eyes depending on what colors I use. I wasn't so much interested in it from a "pretty" stand point, but more of a theatrical/ editorial one. Didn't happen, I couldn't relate with the majority of people in cosmotology and thought that was a sign that it wasn't for me.

Make-up packaging IS what got me into marketing, though. I kept analyzing why I was purchasing so much of it and never using it, it dawned on me that it was the packaging and the promise of transformation. It STILL lures me in. But, I love packaging across all product categories anyway.

Since I don't wear much make-up, sometimes I look at people who do and wonder what it is that they are hiding behind the mask. Then I feel like a terrible person for making judgements based on a physical appearance, I am no better of a person for choosing to be more natural and probably equally as vane and insecure. I'd never leave the house without bronzer but have no problem never brushing or styling my hair. I guess I equate looking "presentable" and "groomed" with feeling like I look awake and healthy. That's what I have managed to come up with anyway.
Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:16 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
zagadka
DARK PAST HAVER


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 4931
Location: Hous of Gaga
 Reply with quote  

Since we're on the topic of gender rolls, what about the notion that the pinnacle of femininity is the roll of woman as mother?

As a female who has recently been married, you would not believe the onslaught of highly intrusive questions about the state of my uterus. I have always been open about the fact parenthood was of no interest to me, but apparently everyone else seems to know better than me, that I will "change my mind" and I'm "just not ready" because "having children is the greatest gift in life and what your destined to do." Our FedEx man's wife told me "well, maybe you'll have an accident like we did!". WTF. Why would you say that to someone?

Ummm.... no. This isn't something that I just woke up one morning and thought to myself. Its been years of intense internal and external chatter. Instead of people being happy that you know what you want out of your life, you get grilled trying to get to the bottom of what's wrong with you.

While I have no doubt that having a child is a very rewarding experience, it is just not the only path to happiness and fulfillment in life and surely not the way that a woman is in her ultimate form of femininity.
Post Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:16 am
 View user's profile Send private message
GrantherBirdly
D&D addict


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 3144
 Reply with quote  

If someone had a donut factory, but refused to use it to produce donuts, wouldn't you be upset as well???? Make us donut babies!

As for make-up, my opinion is that the augmentation and modification of the human body is as old as humans are (I have zero evidence to support this) and so should be embraced not rebuffed. If we condemn make-up as "cheating", then why not also condem clothes, tattoos, hair styling, shaving, perfumes and cologne, piercings, accessories, etc. I don't really believe humans have a natural state (such as being hairy naked brutes) that we then proceed to mess with and stray away from. I think we're all just living experiments and should treat our body image accordingly. That's not to say a lot of people don't have unhealthy or obsessive relationships with their self-presentation, but I don't think this is reason enough to jettison the whole notion of altering our forms in ways that we and others find pleasing. What I'm trying to say is I wish I wore makeup.
Post Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:27 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jack



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 678
 Reply with quote  

zagadka wrote:
Since we're on the topic of gender rolls, what about the notion that the pinnacle of femininity is the roll of woman as mother?

As a female who has recently been married, you would not believe the onslaught of highly intrusive questions about the state of my uterus. I have always been open about the fact parenthood was of no interest to me, but apparently everyone else seems to know better than me, that I will "change my mind" and I'm "just not ready" because "having children is the greatest gift in life and what your destined to do." Our FedEx man's wife told me "well, maybe you'll have an accident like we did!". WTF. Why would you say that to someone?

Ummm.... no. This isn't something that I just woke up one morning and thought to myself. Its been years of intense internal and external chatter. Instead of people being happy that you know what you want out of your life, you get grilled trying to get to the bottom of what's wrong with you.

While I have no doubt that having a child is a very rewarding experience, it is just not the only path to happiness and fulfillment in life and surely not the way that a woman is in her ultimate form of femininity.


penis envy
Post Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:06 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Aus.
 Reply with quote  

I stumbled into this video yesterday. It is about a young girl who was raped and neglected at a very early age and how it affected her.

<object><param></param><param></param><param></param></object>
Post Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:20 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
Jesse Custer



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1256
Location: London
 Reply with quote  

zagadka wrote:
Since we're on the topic of gender rolls, what about the notion that the pinnacle of femininity is the roll of woman as mother?

As a female who has recently been married, you would not believe the onslaught of highly intrusive questions about the state of my uterus. I have always been open about the fact parenthood was of no interest to me, but apparently everyone else seems to know better than me, that I will "change my mind" and I'm "just not ready" because "having children is the greatest gift in life and what your destined to do." Our FedEx man's wife told me "well, maybe you'll have an accident like we did!". WTF. Why would you say that to someone?
.


I know the attitude to which you are referring and I'm won't defend it because some people can be awful like that. But, your post does remind me of something one of my friends once said.

She also had decided that she didn't want children but there did come a time in her life when, although rationally she knew she absolutely didn't want a child, her body was telling her something very different and she found herself being a bit baby-crazy despite her best intuitions.

I think that is in part what people are alluding to when they say stuff like this, whether consciously or unconsciously due to the impact of the hormones on them.
Post Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:50 am
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
zagadka
DARK PAST HAVER


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 4931
Location: Hous of Gaga
 Reply with quote  

Jesse Custer wrote:
I know the attitude to which you are referring and I'm won't defend it because some people can be awful like that. But, your post does remind me of something one of my friends once said.

She also had decided that she didn't want children but there did come a time in her life when, although rationally she knew she absolutely didn't want a child, her body was telling her something very different and she found herself being a bit baby-crazy despite her best intuitions.

I think that is in part what people are alluding to when they say stuff like this, whether consciously or unconsciously due to the impact of the hormones on them.


I hear ya and I don't doubt that happens to some people, I have seen it myself (but personally think its maybe external factors and pressure from others rather than some mysterious hormonal thang). But, it still casts women as these hormonal, unpredictable, ever-changing creatures that have no control over their own bodies or emotions.

EDIT: If I could have a wang for 24hrs, I totally would.
Post Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:30 am
 View user's profile Send private message
Jesse Custer



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1256
Location: London
 Reply with quote  

Everyone can be a crazy hormonal changeable twat at times with no controlof their own emotions; male or female. Sorry to disappoint your rationality aand logic but it happens to all of us sometimes.

To dismiss the notion of some 'magic hormone' thing completely is also thewrong way to look at things.
Post Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:36 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

I don't really get why people want children so badly anyways. It's this loud, obnoxious third party drag on your relationship that eats money and shits...well poop. I find animals less obtrusive, while still giving you the whole "something bigger than yourself to care for" aspect. Plus it feels more like a relationship of equals than dealing with a kid. I mean once a dog gets out of the puppy phase they're kind of grown up, and you can have adult discussions with them. Or cats if you are a cat person.

Anyways. Yeah our society is weird about women who don't want to have kids. Which I think is a lasting remnant of the notion that women's main value in the world is as mothers. Which I mean--seeing as we're not living in the jungles by ourselves fending off tigers and lions--seems a rather antiquated notion. Reproduction is not the point of living.

Cool if you do it. But just as cool if you don't.

My aunt is coming into her late 60s, has been married I think three times. Never had any kids. Nor does she really express any regrets about that. She does her thing, and when she wanted to be around kids, she'd just come visit me and my sister. I'm sure she's had to justify that many times in her life--but I mean, you can't give a fuck. It's your life, and you get to live it how you want to live it. Hormones aren't going to magically make you want to have a kid if you don't want one.
Post Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:40 am
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
anomaly
Loserface


Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 2577
Location: DFW, TX
 Reply with quote  

I'm 34, my wife is 36. Every time we see my family, we get bombarded w/ "when are you going to have a baby" questions.

I'm the last one to carry on my family name. I almost feel obligated, but that's not enough of a reason to bring a child into this world.

I think I'll wait another 34 years.
Post Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:34 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
Prontoid



Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 1605
Location: Melbourne, Australia
 Reply with quote  

futuristxen wrote:
I don't really get why people want children so badly anyways. It's this loud, obnoxious third party drag on your relationship that eats money and shits...well poop. I find animals less obtrusive, while still giving you the whole "something bigger than yourself to care for" aspect. Plus it feels more like a relationship of equals than dealing with a kid. I mean once a dog gets out of the puppy phase they're kind of grown up, and you can have adult discussions with them. Or cats if you are a cat person.

Anyways. Yeah our society is weird about women who don't want to have kids. Which I think is a lasting remnant of the notion that women's main value in the world is as mothers. Which I mean--seeing as we're not living in the jungles by ourselves fending off tigers and lions--seems a rather antiquated notion. Reproduction is not the point of living.

Cool if you do it. But just as cool if you don't.

My aunt is coming into her late 60s, has been married I think three times. Never had any kids. Nor does she really express any regrets about that. She does her thing, and when she wanted to be around kids, she'd just come visit me and my sister. I'm sure she's had to justify that many times in her life--but I mean, you can't give a fuck. It's your life, and you get to live it how you want to live it. Hormones aren't going to magically make you want to have a kid if you don't want one.


Clearly a big part of any organism's makeup is to reproduce...female dogs sometimes are better off being allowed to have one litter early in life before they are spayed...they tend to react differently to the spaying...conversely to your story I know plenty of older people who have lived successful lives whose one regret is they didn't have kids...point is everyone's different and people should respect others choices

Also about the make up ads...you can't hate on people trying to peddle their products, there heaps more evil shit being sold in the world than makeup...and hair and beauty product ads provide me a lot of amusement with pseudo scientific slogans like "fighting the seven signs of ageing" etc etc
Post Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:31 am
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8500
Location: Third Coast
 Reply with quote  

Regarding make-up: it's not about the product being sold. It's about the message that sells the product, i.e. you can't really be attractive as who you are. I also don't think that's the same as piercings, tattoos, or fashion (though the latter has probably the closest parallel). The reason for this is that piercings and tattoos are generally not something you see advertised for. Tattoos especially are (or should be, in my opinion) deeply personal and permanent expressions of a particular thought, memory, or experience. They also, at least not in Western culture, are not used as a socioculturally agreed upon means of attractive a lover or mate, though they can and do serve this purpose. Likewise with piercings, to a lesser extent.

Fashion is driven by the capitalist impulse through marketing and brand-name recognition. It's important to therefore separate clothing as utility and clothing as self-expression, status, and so forth. When you wear what you want, you aren't a part of any overriding cultural mode; you are effectively a functionalist. When you wear what you think is cool, trendy, hip, or desirable you are subscribing to materialist purview. Let's make the distinction there.

As for having kids, I don't see how anyone can force their on views on others, or even hold childbirth and rearing as a social expectation. First off, it's none of their business, friends, family, or otherwise. Second, this planet is exponentially populated every day. Having anything other than two kids (sorry if this offends anyone who has more than two) is irresponsible, from the broader consideration of humanity, carbon footprints, children without parents that go hungry, and so on. Third, and relative to the second point, there are plenty of children without homes that need adoption. So actually birthing a child at this point is no longer an imperative.
Post Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:53 am
 View user's profile Send private message
Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8500
Location: Third Coast
 Reply with quote  

Oops. Apparently women in general only began wearing cosmetics as part of the Flapper movement in the 1920s and beyond. Formerly make-up was only worn by prostitutes and cabaret performers. So initially it was a kind of appropriation of male expectations of women and an expression of agency that ultimately reshaped gender roles. In this way, cosmetics were a subversive tactic in which women asserted their independence in both thought and physical expression important to things like the suffrage movement and post-Victorian feminism.

That said, I think we can all agree that despite this initial history cosmetics now have been thoroughly commercialized and lost any kind of revolutionary luster. Then again, I will say that goth and emo females (and this designation comes with its own set of assumptions, I realize) have used make-up and fashion to challenge what being conventionally feminine means and what beauty is. So the issue is complex and layered. This would actually make a really interesting topic for historical and sociological study.
Post Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:31 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
GrantherBirdly
D&D addict


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 3144
 Reply with quote  

Captiv8 wrote:
When you wear what you want, you aren't a part of any overriding cultural mode; you are effectively a functionalist. When you wear what you think is cool, trendy, hip, or desirable you are subscribing to materialist purview. Let's make the distinction there.


You're capable of making that distinction? Because I honestly am not. I used to think wearing the most nondescript, brand-less, and monochromatic clothing was most honest. Then I realized that those clothes send out cultural / status signifiers just like anything else. I also realized that I was completely incapable of distinguishing my feelings on what "I want" vs. "what I am culturally conditioned to want." This realization extends well beyond clothing. Nowadays I don't view humans as an authentic core vying against external cultural influences. I think of us as fundamentally products of culture, for better and worse.
Post Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:45 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
All times are GMT - 6 Hours.
The time now is Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:01 am
  Display posts from previous:      


Powered by phpBB: © 2001 phpBB Group
Template created by The Fathom
Based on template of Nick Mahon