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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Aus.
Gender roles, lust & love.  Reply with quote  

Throughout my life, i have seen a movement of corrupted and destructive human sexuality. It is sickly disconcerting to know in rough, how much men believe that their role as a "man" is to dominate women. And indeed, that this is how they must act and be to have the opportunity for sex. I intellectualize this to much, but in essence what im trying to say is "Many men.... desire, take pleasure.. from de-humanizing women through sex". This is at an epidemical scale. Even if men dont do this, the prevailing attitude is still present.

It seems as if some these "men" are possessed by a nightmarish hate, on which sex is an event of torturing and inflicting abuses on every level to women in sex. What also flashes red lights is that the psyche of women who are victims, persistently, it would seem, becomes so distorted that they accept this treatment and believe that this in fact the way they should be treated.

I personally have, on too many occasions, and id say most people with one eye peeled and an ear open witnessed these anti-woman life-styles in daily life. People using slut and whore to me, is generally an indication of this mentality. Im aware its not exactly what you say, but the intention behind it and if i hear someone use these terms in a hateful or derogatory way i lose mucho respect immediately. Though there are the youngsters who adopt this way of self-expression to fit in. Another very important issue is that this mentality has become a social thing, a form of entertainment amongst "bros".

If your a dude, you probably have noticed that Rape & Torture is fairly commonplace in porn. Im not against porn in itself, but the way it is its just destroying us a species, i think. Well, it is human sexuality at its core thats poisioned, but id say the advent of porn contributed to this sexuality. I feel people are ignoring, turning away from or vindicating it, well all of the above.

On facebook today one of my aqcuaintances and this other mysoginistic dude, who somehow found his way amongst my ex-circle of friends, typed this today. Quoted verbatim.

"waiting and the strippers never turned up. A real dissapointing bucks night if u ask me"
"WTF thats shit hole... thoes strippers should get gobbling nuts as pay back".

Case in point.

The acquaintance liked that reply, for some reason. Even though i schooled him on the retardedness of this dude. Just one thing, but i witness shit like this way too much.

Would anyone care to share some views, opinions, words on this? I would greatly appreciate if someone could point me in a direction to make more sense of this.
Post Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:36 am
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Jack



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 678
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


what about girls that like sex of that nature?
Post Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:04 am
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Aus.
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I could see that coming from a mile away and its a very difficult thing to speak of. Thats something i cant come to terms with.

An important question would be why do they like sex of that nature. Thats something such women i think should ask themselves. Id imagine one reason would be by being treated overly nice by many men, treated like a princess. I think a large number of women would do much to please there man also, at the expense of themself. They could have become desensitized, stockholm syndrome, fear and conflict with themselves, lack of self-respect, there are many things. Dont forget society has been patriarchally dominated for what seems like millenia. I cant verify it, but it seems that way.

There is vigorous sex, which is not bad in itself. But when the intention is of hate, i believe it is something ultimately destructive.
Post Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:01 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6870
Location: Northern New Jersey
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Right or wrong I read it like this:

Misogyny is alive and well but it is not stronger than ever. Rather, like most weakened and dying cultural phenomena, misogynistic folk are lashing out as violently as they can. If you carefully examine history you'll see trends like that constantly... as the old is washed aside those who benefited and believed in it will grow louder and overrepresent themselves. The other part of this is that the Internet is an enabler and a loudspeaker for those who wish to overrepresent their point of view. It's a perfect medium for the little guy to shout, and it only takes a few of those shouting little guys before you get people claiming that it's a "movement." Sorry, nope. It's a dying ideal and the people shouting don't represent a silent majority, they represent a scared minority that doesn't know what to do as the world moves on.

Special comment about porn: I do see fetishized violence against women in porn. I also see a LOT of foot fetish shit in porn. Around a decade ago porn started moving fetish stuff to the mainstream, with the thought that mainstream viewers would accept a little bit of fetish in a scene or video and the fetish viewers would broaden the market for that video. That hasn't really changed. The Internet, again, is transformative here. Porn is one of those things where viewing preferences are highly subjective. Fetish porn is much more likely to make money because it's harder to satisfy those fetishes in real life so people satisfy them in fantasy. Again, I don't think it's part of a growing problem but it's part fo the nature of the Internet to allow both high availability of content and highly specialized content.

Finally, I'd say that the very fact that someone like you is concerned about this topic is proof of the profound change that society is going through. In a few generations we will likely have a very different default view of these issues. We'll also probably look back at this time as though it were the fucking dark ages. There will also be some people, and they'll probably still be loud and overrepresented, that will look back at this time nostalgically and think about how women were subjugated and discriminated against now and they'll feel that their rights have been taken away.

I've been reading a lot about this sort of thing over the last few months. I think the best explanation for people like this is that they are scared. See, these people have lived their lives in ways they believe are righteous, just as you and I have. Yet, as time went on and culture changed they were left behind. They were never convinced of the errors in their thinking, and so when society changed they suddenly went from righteous to wrong without changing any of their attitudes, actions, or beliefs. It's scary to suddenly go from being right to being wrong, and especially so on a moral level.

There's no reason to think that these people need sympathy or special consideration for this, they don't... and they are still on the losing side of history. However, you have to understand that this is the reason why these people organize, overrepresent, and vote Republican. Some of the people that agree with these outdated beliefs may even be good people but they simply can't move beyond the past. We should expect this to happen and react accordingly. We should recognize that these people will organize in a way that slows down the change, but they cannot stop it. Most of all, we shouldn't let our fear rule us the way theirs rules them.
Post Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:23 am
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Aus.
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Thanks for the brilliant take on the matter, redball. What you say about such persons over-representing and exaggerating themselves does make sense. I do truly hope this thing is nearing terminus or turning into a few small remaining pockets as you say. I do know i blow things out of proportion and that the media, internet and other communicative outlets do have the tendency to create the illusion of making something appear bigger than it is.

That can be done easily when a statistic like one-in-three women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime is thrown at you, which i did take as one in three women are raped.
Post Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:04 am
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Mikal kHill



Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 6851
Location: http://mikalkhill.com
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I shouldn't even partake in this argument... carry on, folks.
Post Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:49 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6870
Location: Northern New Jersey
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There's a difference between misogyny and sexual assault, remember that. Misogyny is a far more widespread problem. It's cultural. Misogyny creates an atmosphere in which sexual assault is more widely tolerated and excused, but it isn't the same thing. Misogyny is something that our culture is slowly rejecting. Sexual assault will not end once misogyny becomes culturally fully unacceptable (which I would welcome but don't really expect anytime soon). Sexual assault may come about as a result of misogyny, but that is far from the only reason. Sexual assault happens due to psychological sickness. You won't fix that kind of sickness by removing the excuses. We can improve the situation but it's wrong to think fixing one problem will fix the other.
Post Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:47 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6290
Location: airstrip one
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Relevant here:

http://www.xojane.com/sex/the-time-i-cried-after-a-facial
Post Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:31 am
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Aus.
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After some further reflection.

To know if this is getting better, it just seems too distant to grasp. Which i would say goes for any issue people are faced with. That would require knowing more about the past. I dont think we have an objective view of the past, with horror stories seemingly being preserved and the positive aspects ignored or the knowledge of it not as much passed down. Or sometimes vice-versa. Certain knowledge being regulated. There was the idea of tantric sexuality from Eastern cultures which has been passed down and which seems to be a more balanced approach to sexuality. But with that you can go into the distinctions between East and West. I dont think it would be entirely unreal to say that a chunk of Eastern folk are adopting more of a Western based approach.

Its easy to imagine that reproduction occured mostly through rape in the stone ages. I dont think we can really know that, and that assumption is based on the lack of a "civil society" such as the ones present on the globe. Also there is this strange kind of superiority of our times, which may be true, that humanity is at the best its ever been.

As for distinguishing between misogyny and sexual assualt, so we are on the same page: misogyny is a mentality. A kind of aspect of a world view. Which seems to be handed down or passed on to others and also facilitated through propaganda, Sometimes it comes of itself through individual experience in their formative years, i guess im mainly refering to serial rapists here, but undoubtedly these views have been nurtured through "shady, behind-the scenes" interactions with other males.
As for sexual assault, as an act, but when you say as a result of psychological sickness you have piqued my interest. Sure i say its a sickness, but specifically what you mean by this, i cant see. Do you mean its some kind of abnormality in the psyche, like a glitch? A lapse in conscience overpowered by sexual desire, or an opportunistic grab when the situation presents itself?
Post Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:32 am
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outpatient



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 475
Location: haggis and scotch eggs
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DeadAwake wrote:
I could see that coming from a mile away and its a very difficult thing to speak of. Thats something i cant come to terms with.

An important question would be why do they like sex of that nature. Thats something such women i think should ask themselves. Id imagine one reason would be by being treated overly nice by many men, treated like a princess. I think a large number of women would do much to please there man also, at the expense of themself. They could have become desensitized, stockholm syndrome, fear and conflict with themselves, lack of self-respect, there are many things. Dont forget society has been patriarchally dominated for what seems like millenia. I cant verify it, but it seems that way.

There is vigorous sex, which is not bad in itself. But when the intention is of hate, i believe it is something ultimately destructive.


I know you're not suggesting this, but nobody should try to prescribe acceptable sex based on their interpretation of pop psychology. It's up to consenting adults to decide if their shared sexual behaviour is destructive.

any kinks or fetishes that are symptomatic of cultural attitudes towards gender will naturally fade away as cultural attitudes evolve, right? but I'm not a psychic, and I have no idea if sexual fetishising of violence is a purely hateful thing. I think people are too complicated for me to judge a man's attitude towards women - or a woman's attitude towards themselves - based on what turns them on.
Post Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:38 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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It's crazy how many people have shitty friends or social connections. I don't have any openly racist, homophobic, or sexist people in my facebook timeline. There's one guy who is like a little way into Jesus--but that's about it. So neener neener neener.

My closest relation to this is in dealing with the comic book industry/culture--which is very misogynist. There's a big thing the past two weeks where idiot comic people have been going after pretty nerds as fake--with the requisite: whore, slut--whatever name calling. They're spefically upset about the attractive cosplaying girls, who they think are at these conventions to bewitch them or something. It's very weird. It is kind of funny though how behind say hiphop comics is in being conscious of it's entire culture. Cosplayers are the b-boy/b-girls of comics--but a lot of suckers haven't figured that one out yet.

Oh yeah but anyways, here's a prominent comic creator writing one of the more disgusting things in comics about women the last few months:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/11/13/hey-quasi-pretty-not-hot-girl-you-are-more-pathetic-than-the-real-nerds-tony-harris/

The best part is when he gets into "con-hot" and critique-ing one's legitimacy to the culture based upon the quality of one's breasts.

As far as porn, I think some of it's supposed to be dirty, shameful, and wrong. You're trying to tap into the lizard brain of a particular group and get them off--and for a lot of various reasons a lot of people have fucked up inner fantasies. I don't think if you cleaned up the porn it would really have the best effect on society--because porn is largely a safe release valve on those messed up thoughts. So in a sense it's value is therapeutic in nature.
Post Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:18 am
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kese



Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 5454
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Pretty sure any human sexual tendencies have been deeply ingrained, by way of millions of years of evolution, way before porn has been widely available/ popular.


Wealthy people used to have their Illuminated Manuscripts and Books of Prayers decorated with obscene cartoons in the margins. (Hence "Marginal Behavior")...The shit Marqis de Sade was talking about was much fouler than what you see in porn nowadays. These were the Aristocrats that were expounding good manners and moral behavior, which set them apart from the more 'animal' lower classes...

Not that we as a species shouldn't be taking steps to transcend our animal nature, but I do not think we're worse off now than we have been in the past...

I believe if anything, like Futur says, it's provided an outlet for repressed fantasy, and possibly holds a mirror to subconscious desires, behavior programmed in our DNA that has helped us evolve from the muck.
Post Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:40 pm
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Jack



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 678
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Quote:

An important question would be why do they like sex of that nature. Thats something such women i think should ask themselves. Id imagine one reason would be by being treated overly nice by many men, treated like a princess. I think a large number of women would do much to please there man also, at the expense of themself. They could have become desensitized, stockholm syndrome, fear and conflict with themselves, lack of self-respect, there are many things. Dont forget society has been patriarchally dominated for what seems like millenia. I cant verify it, but it seems that way.

There is vigorous sex, which is not bad in itself. But when the intention is of hate, i believe it is something ultimately destructive.


How someone is as a person doesn't really reflect how they view sex. Like others have pointed out there is a lot of other factors going into it. A psychodynamic theory way of looking at with suppressed urges is a pretty fun way to think about it. I am sure plenty of people could tell stories that conflict with that point of view. The "classiest" girl I have ever had sex with definitively liked the most "disturbing" sex.

I think a lot more fun idea or viewpoint to bring up would be that most women and men like the idea of both dominating and being dominated. However due to porn and sociological factors, woman may be a bit more timid in bringing up being the aggressor as well as accepting a guy who is willing to be dominated. And a man would be more timid in bringing up being dominated or accepting a girl that wants to dominate. So for example let's say I really want to be dominated. Not only am I not very likely to bring it up because of fear of being judged/rejected, nut even I dod bring it upshe is likely to reject it as she would have a fear of being judged with being a man who likes to be dominated. I dont know if that concept has any grain of truth in it, but its cool beans
Post Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:17 pm
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DeadAwake



Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Aus.
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Yeah, absolutely i cant prescribe what acceptable behaviour is. Its an exercise in futility and very elitist of me. Its up to people to feel remorse and struggle with the darker sides of themselves.

To completely dissolve internet porn is probably my most stupid idea thus far, ever. Society probably is improving when the sex-slave market and Muslim treatment of woman are being brought into public awareness.

Never heard about that Marqis de Sade dude until now. After 5-10 mins of reading stuff wikid about him... goddamn.

Im clearly gonna have to rethink my stance and let this go for awhile.
Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:06 am
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T-Wrex
p00ny tang


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 6381
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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VCR porn was good...
Internet porn is better...
The numbers say that it probably keeps the creepers busy at home instead of in dark alleys.....



The football I watch is more violent than any porn I've ever seen..
And as long as the sex and video-taping is consensual, I don't see how it's any different from sports..

Who am I to tell somebody what they can and can't do with their body?
I just won't watch if I don't like it. Doesn't make me a playa' hata'.

Some men like to dominate things. It's hormonal.
Jordan posterizing Ewing was probably as rewarding as any sex he could ever had captured on film...
Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:21 pm
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